First, a personal note / soapbox. I take a keen interest in the decay of modern day relationships, and relationships in general, because I come from a 2-generations-divorced family and don't want to end up the same way. I have witnessed firsthand the bitterness and pain this causes between kids and their parents, as well as the emotional damage it does to parents but especially to their kids, and even though it has been over 18 years since my parents were divorced, the impacts of this event, psychologically and otherwise, affect me to this day.
I gained a further interest in relationships and social psychology in high school, seeing what I perceived to be utterly futile and meaningless so-called relationships around me. How is it that two people can meet, claim to be in love in a couple of weeks, and be bitter enemies, all by the end of the month? What leads to a relationship succeeding, or failing? And most importantly, what things can I look for, can I do, to maximize the chances of not having to deal with heartbreak?
It is my hope that all of you might find this post educational, but might also learn some important things you can apply in your own life and your own relationships as well.
MGTOW, or Men Going Their Own Way, is a movement that, while not having an official name or even being recognized as one for most of its history up until recently, is an interesting one. The first known occurrence of the phrase "Men Going Their Own Way" was in 1853 (mgtow.com), and typically has to do with, as the name suggests, men... going off and doing their own thing. To quote what is likely the most definitive source, www.mgtow.com, on what exactly MGTOW is, their answer is:
"M.G.T.O.W - Men Going Their Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: "No". Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a "man" is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn't."
While it is true that these motives may seem selfish, or self-centered, the reasoning that men may choose to lead a lifestyle that could be considered MGTOW varies; while Wilbur's motives were clearly that he valued pursuits of his passion more than anything he might gain in marriage, what I've observed is that many MGTOW are fed up with the caliber of relationships found today, and are in general unhappy with the treatment they've received under the law, especially in cases of divorce.
One good example of this would be military veteran Terrence Popp, who not only had to deal with his wife having an affair, but felt greatly mistreated by the family court system in the United States, facing allegedly great bias, having his history in the military used against him, and also allegedly being made to fulfill unreasonable court demands.
While it is true that MGTOW in and of itself is a group, and this chapter focuses primarily on close relationships, the motivation that Terrence Popp went through (failed relationship, and later, systemic mistreatment) is extremely relevant. There are, of course, also WGTOW, which might best be described as a (generally unnamed) 'sect' of feminism with similar ideals--a desire to, not bother with marriage or relationships, but make something for themselves with their lives. It is worth noting that this ideology is typically characterized not as a "career first, family later" mentality, but one that abandons any plans for marriage or family altogether.
The reason that this "flaws are external to me" mindset is so toxic is because it precludes the possibility of you considering yourself to be causing an issue, or not doing your part, in a relationship, placing a much more significant portion of the blame, distaste, and bitterness on your partner, not to mention that, if both parties aren't willing to come forward in honesty and a willingness to change to make things work, it is significantly more difficult to solve any problem that might arise. Communication, and being able to have empathy, are rooted in the ability to step out of our own shoes and see things from another person's perspective. Again, this mindset severely limits empathy, because you're less likely to see anything less than the image of yourself you've built up.
A third factor would also be expectations, again with some definite influence from social media. People tend to show their 'best' side on social media (childmind.org has some very useful information on this), which results in a skewed view of reality--expecting many more highs than lows in life, and consequently, in relationships. If you're expecting to be happy 95% of the time, and you're only having your expectations met say, 70% of the time, you could interpret that as something wrong with the relationship, or your partner--even though in reality, it's your expectation that things will be better than reality that's flawed.
It is almost astonishing to see how self-destructive two seemingly rational and well-intentioned people can be in their relationships. The "demand/withdraw interaction pattern" is one case of this--the wife, being aware of a problem or dissatisfaction on her end of things, insists that her husband discuss it with her, and is frustrated when he withdraws. This only makes matters worse, as the wife may feel that her husband is unwilling to address the matter, and the husband may feel that he's seen as always in the wrong, or that he's being attacked.
Communication issues are only exacerbated by some of the very flawed mindsets that are floating around--such as the "I'm not broken, you are" attitude that one's partner is the root of any problem, and especially by the 'relationship limelight' that social media can give us, making out any good relationship to be free of flaws and problems, when the reality of the situation is that virtually all relationships face issues now and again, which makes the ability to communicate about said issues--honestly, respectfully, and openly--and to work together to solve them--not blaming the other person, or leaving it to them to carry the burden alone--key.
That said, it would seem that in some modern day relationships, the threshold for walking away is quite low, as is the threshold for jumping into a relationship also. It would seem to be 'ancient wisdom' (at least, I have heard this from a few long-married persons) that the best relationships start as true and genuine friendships. After all... while a relationship can be fun and exciting at first, you can't become dependent on the initial hormonal happiness that you get out of it to keep you with your partner. True and lasting relationships cannot, I believe, be built upon things that are so... unstable and unreliable. While it would seem to be the case that mutual Spiritual beliefs are the most unshakable foundation--being external to both parties in the relationship--friendship would be the next best thing, I believe.
If you're looking for more information on good relationships in general, I found this web page by the Australian government, with very useful suggestions such as
Of all of the factors that relate to a relationship's stability, I personally would argue that communication is the most important. Just as an addict must admit they have a problem before they have any chance of being able to be free from it, a couple must be able to communicate issues and desires to one another, if they are ever to grow and and overcome the problems they inevitably will face.
Citations
Department of Health & Human Services. (2014, August 31). Relationships and communication. Retrieved from https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/relationships-and-communication
In U.S., Proportion Married at Lowest Recorded Levels. (2010, September). Retrieved April 2, 2019, from https://www.prb.org/usmarriagedecline/Jacobson, R., & Child Mind Institute. (n.d.).
Social Media and Self-Esteem | Impact of Social Media on Youth. Retrieved from https://childmind.org/article/social-media-and-self-doubt/
Kassin, S. M., Fein, S., & Markus, H. R. (2017). Social Psychology. Boston, MA: Cengage Learning.
The History of M.G.T.O.W | Men Going Their Own Way. (n.d.). Retrieved April 2, 2019, from https://www.mgtow.com/history/
I gained a further interest in relationships and social psychology in high school, seeing what I perceived to be utterly futile and meaningless so-called relationships around me. How is it that two people can meet, claim to be in love in a couple of weeks, and be bitter enemies, all by the end of the month? What leads to a relationship succeeding, or failing? And most importantly, what things can I look for, can I do, to maximize the chances of not having to deal with heartbreak?
It is my hope that all of you might find this post educational, but might also learn some important things you can apply in your own life and your own relationships as well.
MGTOW? What's that?
"I don't have time for a wife and an airplane" -Wilbur Wright
"M.G.T.O.W - Men Going Their Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: "No". Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a "man" is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn't."
While it is true that these motives may seem selfish, or self-centered, the reasoning that men may choose to lead a lifestyle that could be considered MGTOW varies; while Wilbur's motives were clearly that he valued pursuits of his passion more than anything he might gain in marriage, what I've observed is that many MGTOW are fed up with the caliber of relationships found today, and are in general unhappy with the treatment they've received under the law, especially in cases of divorce.
One good example of this would be military veteran Terrence Popp, who not only had to deal with his wife having an affair, but felt greatly mistreated by the family court system in the United States, facing allegedly great bias, having his history in the military used against him, and also allegedly being made to fulfill unreasonable court demands.
While it is true that MGTOW in and of itself is a group, and this chapter focuses primarily on close relationships, the motivation that Terrence Popp went through (failed relationship, and later, systemic mistreatment) is extremely relevant. There are, of course, also WGTOW, which might best be described as a (generally unnamed) 'sect' of feminism with similar ideals--a desire to, not bother with marriage or relationships, but make something for themselves with their lives. It is worth noting that this ideology is typically characterized not as a "career first, family later" mentality, but one that abandons any plans for marriage or family altogether.
So what characterizes some these "bad partners" that have led some of those in MGTOW/WGTOW to abandon dating?
The Decline of Interdependency and Reliance Upon One-Another in Relationships
I think by far one of the biggest ones would be the attitude that has arisen in modern society, following the general decline of interdependency in relationships. Compared to the great depression, or the more rural parts of America's past where, if you weren't happy with your partner you could't just hop online and find another one discreetly, we live in an era where sexual and romantic partners are more accessible, and it would seem, disposable, than ever before. While is true that the divorce rate in America is going down,at the same time, marriage rates are also facing new lows (PRB.org, 2010), which while having many potential factors, could be indicative of an unwillingness to commit.
"If Someone Doesn't Like Me, It's Them That's Broken"
I believe that another large factor is self-image, something that with social media and the modern self-esteem movement, could be leading people to see any issue in a relationship as something their partner is doing wrong, instead of something they could be doing wrong. One need look no further than politics to see this same attitude; it's as if it's always something the other party, something the group you're not a part of, is doing wrong, that is ruining the town/country/world. Anything, anyone is the problem... except that which looks at you in the mirror. Below is one such image, taken from the app Whisper, characterizing this mindset: If someone doesn't like you, it's something wrong with them. This ultimately unhealthy idea (justly or unjustly) implies that your mannerisms, your attitudes, your personality, cannot possibly be wrong. I am not saying that all women or men have such a toxic attitude, but that enough do for this to be noticeable.
The reason that this "flaws are external to me" mindset is so toxic is because it precludes the possibility of you considering yourself to be causing an issue, or not doing your part, in a relationship, placing a much more significant portion of the blame, distaste, and bitterness on your partner, not to mention that, if both parties aren't willing to come forward in honesty and a willingness to change to make things work, it is significantly more difficult to solve any problem that might arise. Communication, and being able to have empathy, are rooted in the ability to step out of our own shoes and see things from another person's perspective. Again, this mindset severely limits empathy, because you're less likely to see anything less than the image of yourself you've built up.
Unrealistic Expectations (In Part Fueled By Social Media)
A third factor would also be expectations, again with some definite influence from social media. People tend to show their 'best' side on social media (childmind.org has some very useful information on this), which results in a skewed view of reality--expecting many more highs than lows in life, and consequently, in relationships. If you're expecting to be happy 95% of the time, and you're only having your expectations met say, 70% of the time, you could interpret that as something wrong with the relationship, or your partner--even though in reality, it's your expectation that things will be better than reality that's flawed.
Communication Breakdown, Potentially Fueled in Part By The Above Aspects
Regardless of social media's influence or expectations, a 1999 study about marital quality found that marital satisfaction overall declines over time (Fein et al, 2017), and while there are of course many factors in this also, one of the most important ones, I believe, is communication.It is almost astonishing to see how self-destructive two seemingly rational and well-intentioned people can be in their relationships. The "demand/withdraw interaction pattern" is one case of this--the wife, being aware of a problem or dissatisfaction on her end of things, insists that her husband discuss it with her, and is frustrated when he withdraws. This only makes matters worse, as the wife may feel that her husband is unwilling to address the matter, and the husband may feel that he's seen as always in the wrong, or that he's being attacked.
Communication issues are only exacerbated by some of the very flawed mindsets that are floating around--such as the "I'm not broken, you are" attitude that one's partner is the root of any problem, and especially by the 'relationship limelight' that social media can give us, making out any good relationship to be free of flaws and problems, when the reality of the situation is that virtually all relationships face issues now and again, which makes the ability to communicate about said issues--honestly, respectfully, and openly--and to work together to solve them--not blaming the other person, or leaving it to them to carry the burden alone--key.
Enough Problems... What can *I* do About This?
You can study how to resolve issues in your own life and relationships. Depending on your own beliefs and relationship expectations, this may differ, but know this: It's extremely unlikely that, whatever relationship you dream of having, can truly exist in the perfect state you might imagine it being. Being able to adapt and compromise (but stand firm when it truly matters), and having an eagerness to address every problem, is almost undeniably invaluable. There are some things that can't be fixed (eg, if you're against drugs but your partner won't stop pressuring you to do them despite how many times you've told them your stance), and you need to know when to walk away.That said, it would seem that in some modern day relationships, the threshold for walking away is quite low, as is the threshold for jumping into a relationship also. It would seem to be 'ancient wisdom' (at least, I have heard this from a few long-married persons) that the best relationships start as true and genuine friendships. After all... while a relationship can be fun and exciting at first, you can't become dependent on the initial hormonal happiness that you get out of it to keep you with your partner. True and lasting relationships cannot, I believe, be built upon things that are so... unstable and unreliable. While it would seem to be the case that mutual Spiritual beliefs are the most unshakable foundation--being external to both parties in the relationship--friendship would be the next best thing, I believe.
If you're looking for more information on good relationships in general, I found this web page by the Australian government, with very useful suggestions such as
- Practicing empathy; trying to listen to your partner and really understand what they're saying--how they feel and why.
- Be very clear about what you want to say--and how you want to say it.
- Ensure that there are no distractions--so that you can be completely focused on what your partner is saying, and the conversation at hand.
Of all of the factors that relate to a relationship's stability, I personally would argue that communication is the most important. Just as an addict must admit they have a problem before they have any chance of being able to be free from it, a couple must be able to communicate issues and desires to one another, if they are ever to grow and and overcome the problems they inevitably will face.
Have realistic expectations, and be willing to work on things. Every relationship, every person has problems, but for every problem there is a solution. It's just a matter of working together to find it, instead of seeing every problem, every flaw, as one that's in your partner, or seeing a minor flaw as a sign that the relationship is inherently broken and can never work.
Citations
Department of Health & Human Services. (2014, August 31). Relationships and communication. Retrieved from https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/relationships-and-communication
In U.S., Proportion Married at Lowest Recorded Levels. (2010, September). Retrieved April 2, 2019, from https://www.prb.org/usmarriagedecline/Jacobson, R., & Child Mind Institute. (n.d.).
Social Media and Self-Esteem | Impact of Social Media on Youth. Retrieved from https://childmind.org/article/social-media-and-self-doubt/
Kassin, S. M., Fein, S., & Markus, H. R. (2017). Social Psychology. Boston, MA: Cengage Learning.
The History of M.G.T.O.W | Men Going Their Own Way. (n.d.). Retrieved April 2, 2019, from https://www.mgtow.com/history/
Thank you for sharing your well written blog. There is a lot information that I can take away from this even though I m not in a relationship yet. Nevertheless, I can look forward to being more prepared when I am. In our current society we have come to rely on the social media around us for communication. But with communication being as important as it is, using social media (indirect messaging) may be easy, however, it is also hindering our relationship as one cannot interpret the others reactions as an example (human to human interaction).
ReplyDeleteI totally agree that often times messages left on social media can easily be construed. Especially, when you are unable to pick up on the tone used within the message. On the flip side you can think about how much better online communication has become because of the advancements made in technology such as the ability to video chat.
DeleteThat is a good point, online communication has been improving. I suppose that I was specifically referring to text messages as they tend to be more bland.
DeleteI believe that social media has become sort of substitute for face to face interaction in today's society, but I agree that it has its pros and cons. I believe many of the cons of social media don’t nessacrly come from the platforms themselves, but simply from a lack of people using moderation when using social media and overcommitting to it.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteDeclan I agree with your statement that we have grown content with using social media to substitute for face to face interactions. It's easier, there's less effort required to go find the person to talk to them, and if we say something that we didn't mean to send we can always delete it.
DeleteThank you for the kind words.
DeleteA lot of the other replies on this comment seem to agree; social media does have a lot of harmful effects, despite its advantages. I personally left long ago, for personal reasons, and am glad I did, seeing the many scandals involving Facebook and other sites come to light.
This was a very well written article. It was realistic, and was blunt about reasonings and the way we might perceive things. The push and pull between people in a relationship and how individual actions might lead us to believe inaccurate feelings about those relationships was explained nicely!
ReplyDeleteThank you! I'm glad you found it real about the issues facing modern day relationships.
DeleteInteresting points, I haven't heard of the MGTOW movement before. It does seem extreme though, it seems like people following MGTOW (or WGTOW) seem to think that any form of relationship would hold them down/back? I haven't seen that to be the case, in my opinion a healthy relationship pushes both partners forward and improves both people in the relationship. I'm curious if the same logic of "it's not me it's them" is at play for (M/W)GTOW people, if they believe they're not the ones at fault for relationships holding them down & swear them off completely because of that?
ReplyDeleteDefinitely, yes! I've found that in almost any group you'll find a 'extreme' subset of members, but as there's been no proper census of people who identify as that to my knowledge, we can only really gauge it off of those who are vocal about the movement.
DeleteThat actually is an interesting question that I hadn't considered--the potential 'it's not me it's them' aspect of MGTOW. Certainly, in Terrence Popp's case, a large part of it was (according to his testimony) his wife cheating on him, and later, him getting made out to be a criminal by the family court system for being in the military.
To what degree was he, or others who feel victimized, at fault? I don't know. But certainly, if he and his spouse had had better communication about their desires and expectations, things may have likely ended differently.
I had the same thought. The (M/W)GTOW mindset seems to be another contributing factor, not a solution.
DeleteCompletely swearing off relationships because one feels like they are holding the back feels like a really pessimistic way of looking at it. I feel like these people are blaming others for their own shortcomings in social functions.
DeleteIan I also feel like they are blaming others for their shortcomings, which I was raised not to do. I also think that many people nowadays have been raised to only want the perfect person, to not settle and if something goes wrong blame the other person. I've personally seen this happen in my high school. If things don't go their way then it's someone else's fault.
DeleteWow....this was a VERY well written blog, and I completely agree with nearly all that you pointed out. I especially liked that you included the fact that all relationships will go through tough patches now and again, it is the strong relationships that will make it through. As you pointed out, people can't go into relationships expecting 95% of the time to be absolute perfect happiness, that simply isn't real life.
ReplyDeletePersonally I think this is a big factor in the high divorce rates of the past 20 years. Instead of leaning on each other through tough times, people are quit to call it quits. Our society is subconsciously told that everything should be perfect all the time and that just isn't the case. People need people to lean on. If someone cannot handle the imperfections, marriage shouldn't be in the cards.
DeleteThere was a lot of information in here that I think just about anyone can benefit from reading. I know a lot of people who have been in relationships where communication is an issue, and it can wear on both people tremendously. I agree with you in saying that communication in a relationship is the most important thing in order for it to stay healthy. Going off of that (as it sort of relates to the ability to communicate), trust is another thing that is important to maintain in a relationship. I don’t know how many times I hear of relationships going south because of a lack of trust. I think trust is a lot harder to build than the ability to communicate, for the most part. When you lose trust in someone, it can take years for you to even think of trusting them again. Trust is a fragile thing. You learn to trust someone over a certain amount of time, and it can be lost with just one action. I can understand why some people would choose the MGTOW/WGTOW lifestyle. Relationships take a lot of time and effort, and sometimes you get burned in the end. Many people may feel like they have much better things to do with their time, and they might even enjoy the freedom of being able to do as they please. You brought up some really great points, and did a great job with this post.
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely right about trust being important. I suppose I really zeroed in on the issue of communication because, well, say trust is an issue. If you can't communicate that issue (or any other for that matter) to your partner, and say "hey, I should be able to place a lot of trust in you. And it's not ok that I can't", well, there's a much, much smaller chance of things ever getting better.
DeleteThank you for the kind remarks as well.
I agree! It's hard to have trust if you can't communicate that there is a problem. It's also kinda interesting to think about how the ability to communicate with others has tremendously changed overtime. It's a lot easier these days to contact people through multiple channels of communication such as face to face, over the phone, texting, and face time/Skype. Long distance relationships were something that probably not a lot of people did before phones were placed in just about everyone's hand. Now we have the ability to contact our friends, family, and significant others easily. Without this kind of technology, these long distance relationships would probably be more likely to fizzle out due to a lack of communication and potentially leading to a lack of trust.
DeleteI can relate to you and this blog very well. My parents are divorced as well and are on their fourth marriages each currently. That being said, I have had my fair share of stepmoms and stepdads, as well as step-siblings. Its a sad part of life. It is the only thing that I would say that I do not want to grow up to be like my parents. They are very loving and have made the transitions as easy as possible on me while growing up. However, having split custody and always have to travel house to house each week growing up really took its toll. I love your part about the unrealistic expectations. I do not think that part specifically has anything to do with my parents considering social media was not very big back then however, it is very relevant today. You see people posting about how much they love their bf/gf and their is nothing wrong with that affection being shown. What I am saying is you just do not get the whole story. Just because they post pictures does not make their relationship better or worse then the next. It is everything you do behind the scenes that matter and I think everyone gets too caught up in "showing off" their relationship that they do not do the little things that keep a relationship fresh and loving.
ReplyDeleteYeah, absolutely! I suppose this also relates to our inability to get the "big picture" of things in general from social media--especially due to our desire to not showcase our failures as much as our successes.
DeleteI suppose that really goes to show just how fallible, despite all of our technology and advancements, we can be. The wealth of knowledge on things we have, and yet.... few people put it into action; most make the same mistakes people made hundreds of years ago, and well documented mistakes at that. Though I suppose that's more of a philosophical sidetrack though.
I think it is our advancements in technology that cause our failures. Just think if our ability to "like" a photo was taken away as it once was. The "fake" happiness we all see would not be a thing and maybe people would be better at realizing the toxicity of a relationship if there was any. What do you think about looking into the success of relationships before Facebook/Instagram vs now? Do you think there would be a difference?
DeleteYour blog was very well written! I had never heard of MGTOW before.
ReplyDeleteI never heard of this either before reading the post! the article provided a thorough breakdown of the concept.
DeleteI really liked how this blog was written. I especially agreed with the section about unhealthy mindsets within relationships and how the “All of my issues are external” mindset is encouraged by social media. I think it’s wrong to constantly tell people they are perfect just the way they are, when in reality no one is perfect. This mindset only deludes people from accepting the fact that they have flaws just like everyone else, and prevents them from taking charge to correct their flaws and become a better person in the process. While I’ve held this belief for a long time now, I never really thought about it might fact close relationships with the ones you love, and how harmful it could be to them.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking the same thing! I feel like the message of "you are amazing and perfect" gets spread out so often. I also believe there is such a fine line between having self confidence /self love and simply being self absorbed. With social media presence it seems to be a persisting problem of the everyone else has problems or flaws except me mindset.
DeleteI definitely agree that not all faults are external, but in the same sense internalizing all of your problems may just result in depression/anxiety. For instance, if you're in a relationship and the other person doesn't love you the same way - that could be either on you or them. It's not a good practice to immediately say it's one or the other, but rather think critically about faults / problems and identify the cause.
ReplyDeleteI would also add to you Caden in saying that not being open to discuss your own feeling and issues, or confronting them contributes to this sense of entrapment. Expressing these feeling of not being heard is sometimes unhealthy, and recognizing for yourself that you may need some help can be harder than letting a relationship go.
DeleteExcellent point, Caden. Another issue could be "appearances vs reality"--ie, they could love and care about you, but if you internalize insecurities and tell yourself they don't want you, you'll practically reject the truth. And so even before we get to the point of relationships, can you be honest with yourself? Can you admit your faults, and genuinely work to fix them? This ties directly into what Abby added.
DeleteI can totally relate to you about how your parents got a divorce. When my parents got divorced when I was 8, it changed a lot more than most people realize. I found this blog very interesting as I do not want to follow the same trend as my parents. One important thing I think you brought up was the whole idea about communication. A big part of communication is honesty. If the person who you are talking to is not honest, then there is no benefit to the relationship. I have seen this play out first hand how lying can affect a relationship. It really can destroy anything that is built up. Another good point you brought up was from the Australian government. I personally liked the first point about empathy and actually listening to how they are feeling. I think this goes hand in hand with communication because you cannot communicate effectively without listening. It is also very hard to "put yourself in someone else's shoes", so I believe showing empathy is difficult and takes practice to truly have.
ReplyDeleteYeah. One of my motivations for writing this was to help people to see just how harmful the "modern day" relationship model can be. The last thing I want is to see this continue and for people to continue to come to harm and emotional strife from it, especially when there's children and families involved.
DeleteYou are right that honesty is another huge factor--and in a sense communication and trust go hand-in-hand with it. Which is why I personally recommend friendship as a necessary precursor to any relationship; it provides a safe environment to build trust and communication skills, and in sharing basic info about each other you'll be practicing honesty and openness--both of which are imperative.
This was a well written blog post. I can actually relate with people who reject the idea of a relationship. I am someone who prefers to put my time into my passion, which is programming and expanding my knowledge. I consider a relationship to be something that would hold me back in most cases (unless I found someone who had very similar interests and passions, perhaps). However, I'm also not very socially comfortable which is certainly a part of it.
ReplyDeleteI can't speak much about the issues within relationships from personal experience, as I have no such experience.
And that's a perfectly fine stance to hold. I mentioned this on another comment, but you really do need to ask yourself, do you want this to be your life? The longer you wait, the smaller the pool of dating candidates gets.
DeleteThat said. There's absolutely no harm in waiting several years, and planning things out, or deciding for sure to never bother with having a family. But certainly one of the worse outcomes would be deciding you'll put yourself/your career first, then having a midlife crisis down the line and deciding you want a spouse and family.
I remember back in high school, I had a friend who had started dating a girl, they dated for about 2 weeks before breaking up, and he did not date anyone for the remainder of high school. I remember talking with him about it, and I couldn’t understand why he seemed so upset with the outcome. I mean, it was only 2 weeks and he seemed distraught at even the idea of dating again.
ReplyDeleteI would say these days it seems like relationships are getting more fluid and less serious. I can’t help but wonder if this movement is a result of people like my friend, guys who had one bad girlfriend in high school and just never got over it. If that where the case it would make since for this movement to be growing, as there are probably more people getting into bad relationships.
I have a friend who went through the same thing. I wonder why one bad experiment would make someone not want to try again? I understand that sometimes having a really bad experience can make you never want to do that certain thing again, but I feel like the need of human connection and not wanting to be alone would over power that when it comes to relationships?
DeleteThat's a really good example Ethan, because it also demonstrates how everyone handles relationships, and breakups, differently. I can't say why he felt so distraught--maybe he obsessed over her beforehand? Maybe he hoped she might take him back? Or maybe he just wanted time to work on himself, or that HS relationships weren't worth pursuing.
DeleteThe overall problem with studying the issues of relationships is that there's just so many factors (because, well, people are complex, even moreso when you have more than one person). Identifying any one factor--eg communication, sure that's easy. But figuring out what society as a whole needs help with, is harder. Though I must say that I am greatly concerned with society; right now our birth:death rates are 1.8. The US population is steady only due to immigration, but these levels are unsustainable, and in only a few generations could spell catastrophe.
Statistics are quite clear that single-parent households yield far worse results than ones where the parents are together, and so stabilizing the US's (and the world's) fertility rates starts with fixing relationships.
I found your article interesting. I've never heard of MGTOW and when you brought it up I went to the website because the description they gave themselves was kinda vague. I thought it was all about rejecting toxic masculinity and breaking out of the roles commonly assigned to men by our culture, part of which includes strict dating expectations. After reading the history tab of the website, I can confirm that is not the case. Now, I believe that our current system is unfair to men and women. Divorce courts can be straight-up cruel to husbands. Our culture needs serious updates on the roles of men and women, but there are issues with the philosophy of this movement that are not what I want to focus on for this comment. It does make me more impassioned about my next point, though.
ReplyDeleteI vehemently agree with what you said at the end. Relationships should be built on friendships. I think that modern methods of interacting ie. dating apps and social media stunt us in our ability to find good fitting partners for all the reasons you stated above. People are impatient, they're vain, they want to fit in. Why spend so much time getting to know the person when you can have a string of hookups? How can they say that I'm being unreasonable; there are many fish in the sea I'll just find another that can stand me. My boyfriend and I had a disagreement last night-- I never see that in the relationships on social media; there must be something wrong with us. Our ability to communicate with each other has been hindered, and it has affected the modern dating scene.
Yeah, there definitely is unfairness--and I could have mentioned this in my article, but was strapped for time, but Tinder's "menprovement" projects, as well as height verification, largely target men, and there has been much outcry from them because of this. They feel that if "no filter" verification, as well as weight verification, were added, this would be more fair. Which are points I do agree on; dating sites should (unless it's their explicit purpose to be biased; it's a free market) generally aim to help everyone get a fair and unbiased experience, so that they all have the best chances of finding the person they're looking for.
DeleteAnd maybe you can reflect on this--how did you feel about the disagreement immediately afterwards? Did you feel more distant from him? Did you feel like the chances of things working out were lower? Perhaps that's just hormones. Or perhaps that's the effects of the stereotype that relationships should be all flowers and roses 24/7.
Wow I really love your post and can relate to it so much. My parents have been divorced for 16 years and I know what youre talking about about the psychology damage it can do not only to their children but to the whole dynamic of the family. My dads parents were also divorced so relationships and commitment scare me a little too because I do not want to end up like them. I totally agree with you about people jumping into relationships and then hating them a month later, like how can you say you love someone and than a month later be enemies? You seemed to have done a lot of research on this topic and I was just wondering if you found anything on why women are more likely willing/want to talk more about problem than males? Also, when parents and families go to court, why are females/the mothers usually treated better and courts usually tend to rule more likely in their favor? I think you did a very good job on this post!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure, that could be more of a cultural thing. There's a common stereotype that while some guys will date just about anyone, it's the girls who get to be choicy and say no to anyone except the ones they want. It could also be a general (again, stereotype, I don't have actual statistics on this) trend that women are more outgoing and better at communicating in general--perhaps related to "motherly instinct" and superior empathy.
DeleteAs for the courts. In some cases, the guys don't really contest it, or don't try to get the kids. Their motivations obviously will vary, but in general there is a degree of corruption in the US court system; while I don't have any statistics, I do have Popp's anecdote and also the fact that my dad has had notarized, legal contracts thrown out in civil disputes, simply because the judge wanted to, without any actual legal grounds for the contract to be invalid. Stereotypes may fuel this more; people typically stereotype women as loving and warm, while men are the source of discipline.
Even outside of the court system, stereotypes like these are extremely harmful.
I full heartedly agree that communication is the most important thing in a relationship. I hadn’t heard of the MGTOW before this post, so it was interesting for me to learn a bit more about it. I feel that it is more common for this to be an acceptable path for men, but for women this can tend to be seen as wrong. There are many who push family life on women when they don’t want it, but it is rarely pushed onto men. I also have seen others comment about how they feel that this is a place for men to go to when a relationship doesn’t go the way that they want it to. If they come from a relationship where there were problems and they blame all the problems on the other partner, then I think that they are using this movement as a safe space because they were hurt. I don’t think that blaming another for all the problems and taking no responsibility, and then deciding to be off of partners for the rest of time because the first relationship wasn’t perfect is a copout.
ReplyDeleteAn interesting analysis--how it's sometimes seen as acceptable for one group but not for another.
DeleteWhile I do not hold this viewpoint myself (really, a study would need to be done), some more female-antagonistic ex-married MGTOW do feel that a lot of women in their age group (namely, 30s+) sleep around and have fun, but only come looking for a man once they've decided a career/fun-oriented lifestyle isn't what they really want.
Obviously, there's significant assumptions, use of anecdotes, and stereotyping there, but the fact that some believe this to be the norm (I believe some WGTOW may do this as well) does show how they may "demonize" the other gender, in some cases as an attempt to cope with their bad experiences.